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BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Downpipe has been nice, seeing a nice jump in fuel economy (atleast 1mpg) and I haven't been driving slower (actually faster on the highway)..I have been hammering it from time to time to hear the exhuast 
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Best Formula N-A 12.1 @ 110 (pre-engine swap)
Last edited by BigEd88 on Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:39 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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| BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well got a scanner hooked up to check knock. Seems to max out around 3-4 when doing a wide open throttle run, but at cruising speeds giving it some gas in third or fourth gear yielded a maximum of 7 KR.
This is pre-pulley, I'm sure I'll have to have some tuning done post pulley.
Right now the vehicle has on it a CAI, 180 Thermostat, Downpipe/GMPP resonator. Haven't done the plugs or the pulley yet. Was reading on the national board that some don't go to a colder plug.
Also noticed after I changed the oil (not really sure if its been their since I got the car or not) a very light ticking sound, seems to be their all the time, has me a bit worried if I should put a pulley on until I figure out what it is, engine oil is at proper level on the dip stick.
I tried to narrow down where the ticking is come from, and I think its over by the oil filter or at least that side of the engine. |
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| JSelk Total posts: 351
Jeffrey Selk2004 Grand Prix GT Joined: 19 Jan 2007 Location: Fort Collins, CO Age: 38 |
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ed,
The ticking could be the lifters. Next time you hear it, put your ear or a glass or something up against your valve covers and see if that's where the sound is coming from. The ticking happens sometimes with certain oil filters and oil combinations (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
What octane gas are you running? I don't know how much you played with my PT, but if you press the space bar it will start logging so you can export the log to CSV and post it here so all can see. My scan history should be in the software, but if it's not we'll at least need O2, LTFT, STFT, spark advance, knock retard, IAT, ECT, Engine Speed, vehicle speed, current gear.
-Jeff
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2004 GT1
*COMPLETE MODS*
17" GM Accessory Rims
Pacesetters
Wizaired CAI
TOP SWAP
Powrtuner
XP Cam, 105# Springs
ZZP S2 I/C
Autolite 103s |
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| redross17 Total posts: 3600
Brian Ross2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Location: Buffalo Age: 48 |
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| BigEd88 wrote: | | Well got a scanner hooked up to check knock. Seems to max out around 3-4 when doing a wide open throttle run, but at cruising speeds giving it some gas in third or fourth gear yielded a maximum of 7 KR. |
Crystal Ball say, "You have stock PCM."
| BigEd88 wrote: |
This is pre-pulley, I'm sure I'll have to have some tuning done post pulley.
Right now the vehicle has on it a CAI, 180 Thermostat, Downpipe/GMPP resonator. Haven't done the plugs or the pulley yet. Was reading on the national board that some don't go to a colder plug. |
Crysal Ball not lie.
Rule of thumb say, "Only go as cold as necessary."
| BigEd88 wrote: |
Also noticed after I changed the oil (not really sure if its been their since I got the car or not) a very light ticking sound, seems to be their all the time, has me a bit worried if I should put a pulley on until I figure out what it is, engine oil is at proper level on the dip stick.
I tried to narrow down where the ticking is come from, and I think its over by the oil filter or at least that side of the engine. |
Rule of wrist say, "Remove oil filler cap+neck and see if get louder."
Labatt Blue say, "Drink me!"
Later...
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2018 Acadia
Retired: 2014 ATS, 2004 GTP |
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| BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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I did the oil change with an AC Delco and Valvoline Synthetic 5w-30. Nothing abnormal about the way the old oil looked.
I almost always run 93 Octane Mobil, stations on the way to work, and one of the stations have 5 cents off super plus on Mondays/Wednesdays
I did figure out the logging while adding some gauges, pretty easy to use program all in all, took me longer to find how to retrieve the logs than to create them  I'll make another one up with the parameters you listed and post them here (might need help hosting).
Worst case I'll have Ross look at them tomorrow at the mini-mod driveway meet
I'll pop the cap/neck off and see what I come up with, its an almost unnoticeable tick, but its there, I think all the time. |
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| BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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alright here's the file, I think I got all the inputs you wanted...and some
http://www.driveway.com/ldoxe98926
Last edited by BigEd88 on Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Scotty Mac Total posts: 2794
Scott McAvoy2002 Other Car Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Location: Deepest Darkest pits of HELL! Age: 44 |
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Slight ticking sound is most likely the injectors firing....older the injectors louder they get! I've heard some GPs that sound like they had been converted to diesel!!!!!
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2002 WRX Wagon - SOLD!!
2009 Toyota Rav 4 Sport.... Yeah....... |
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| JSelk Total posts: 351
Jeffrey Selk2004 Grand Prix GT Joined: 19 Jan 2007 Location: Fort Collins, CO Age: 38 |
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Ed,
It looks to me like you might be running a little lean? I think you were WOT at the 214 - 235 range on your scan. At WOT, both LTFT and STFT should be 0 (or very close to it). Your STFTs were 0 but LTFTs were both ~-3.4... And the KR never stopped until you took off the throttle... |
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| BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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hmm, heres the first scan, a lot more driving, not sure all the info you need but here it is: http://www.driveway.com/igodz36892
Strange color scheme, but you can see the knock I get when the engine is under heavy load (such as flooring it in third). That was when I was playing around with how to do this and that with the software, haven't done any actual tuning, just logging.
There is a section where I wound it up to 120 for the scan from about 10-20mph, knock was in the 2-4, mostly right around 3 range.
Seems it general it runs rich, but when I go wide open begins to lean out? I think thats how Ross explained it to me today. |
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| redross17 Total posts: 3600
Brian Ross2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Location: Buffalo Age: 48 |
| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| BigEd88 wrote: |
Seems it general it runs rich, but when I go wide open begins to lean out? I think thats how Ross explained it to me today. |
lol...I guess I didn't do such a good job. I think you got that from the fuel trim conversation? They are not recalculated during WOT. They are learned during "normal" driving. At WOT, the computer basically uses the last known trims. If they were negative, the motor could be missing out on a lot of fuel and start breaking things. Same is true for positive values, but they have to be much farther off--but will still cost you power. The motor actually is programmed to run richer over time during WOT....at least until it starts cutting of injectors.
In a nutshell, you want your LTFTs to be close to 0 during normal driving so that when it takes that last known value at WOT, the motor will be fed almost exactly what is commanded, instead of having an assumed + or - adjustment to the commanded fueling.
During normal driving, your trim adjustment to hit 14.7 AFR might need to be -7.0 for a particular MAF/MAP/IPW/RPM/Load (and other variables, no doubt. heh-heheh..load) combination. If you reset your PCM, your STFTs and LTFTs will start at 0. Your STFTs will then swing negative to pull your LTFTs toward -7.0 (it doesn't know that's the goal, but I'm saying it's the end result for this example). As your LTFTs approach -7.0, the PCM will determine that's where it wants to be, and your STFTs will approach 0, reducing the amount the LTFTs change. If the weather changes and the PCM decides it needs to be closer to -6.0, your STFTs will go positive a little to nudge your LTFTs less negative.
Then, if you decide to go WOT, the PCM will look up against it's known trim tables for the MAF/MAP/etc combinations and use those values since it's now kinda busy and can't be bothered with that math shit to figure out the correct trims.   Stay in school, kids. |
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| BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Figured out what the check engine light was, actually showed a code. Its the low cat efficiency code so I'll be looking into solving that problem before inspection time....next spring. Could that also effect my fuel trims? |
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| BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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OK so I still confused a bit...but I did make the table easier to read and bolded areas I found interesting:
http://www.driveway.com/llhyv13106
A negative LTFT (what my car has, very much so at times) means the car is generally running lean(er than 14.7 A/F)? When it switches to the next trim map (for full throttle not cruising) it begins to add fuel.....so I see STFT going positive, That would be why after a WOT run or knock it would appear my STFT are showing positive, because its adding fuel, to late but adding it none the less.
When I see the STFT being positive that means it's richening RIGHT NOW and negative means its leaning out RIGHT NOW. I think I have that down. So if I went in the tables and "generally" added fuel it would creep the LTFT's closer to positive and keep the STFT's hopefully near zero, which would mean in general it has richened. To much fuel and I'll see positive LTFT's, to little and I'll see negative?
Am I in the right ballpark wrong seat or have I not left my house yet? |
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| JSelk Total posts: 351
Jeffrey Selk2004 Grand Prix GT Joined: 19 Jan 2007 Location: Fort Collins, CO Age: 38 |
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| BigEd88 wrote: | OK so I still confused a bit...but I did make the table easier to read and bolded areas I found interesting:
http://www.driveway.com/llhyv13106
A negative LTFT (what my car has, very much so at times) means the car is generally running lean(er than 14.7 A/F)? When it switches to the next trim map (for full throttle not cruising) it begins to add fuel.....so I see STFT going positive, That would be why after a WOT run or knock it would appear my STFT are showing positive, because its adding fuel, to late but adding it none the less.
When I see the STFT being positive that means it's richening RIGHT NOW and negative means its leaning out RIGHT NOW. I think I have that down. So if I went in the tables and "generally" added fuel it would creep the LTFT's closer to positive and keep the STFT's hopefully near zero, which would mean in general it has richened. To much fuel and I'll see positive LTFT's, to little and I'll see negative?
Am I in the right ballpark wrong seat or have I not left my house yet? |
Kind of...
When you see negative LTFTs and STFTs it doesn't necessarily mean your car is running lean. It simply means that the load on the engine doesn't demand the amount of fuel designated by 0 (Zero) LTFT / STFT. So it subtracts the amount % of the demand from the engine. So if this helps, WOT should be 0 STFT and LTFT because the engine load is 100%, it needs 100% of the fuel and, therefore, doesn't subtract any fuel. The fact that you've got negative STFT values at WOT is of concern; maybe even first concern.
STFTs need to be very, very close to zero. This can be done through tuning and usually, it's not too extensive (compared to other tasks, of course).
Too be honest, I think you really, really need some exhaust work like we talked about on Sunday. Especially since you're running 9+ PSI on a stock pulley. That's a concerning as well.
We can try to get rid of your KR through tuning, but I don't think that it's worth the time put in to resolve it. Frankly, KR scales back engine timing for the current situation (engine load, MAP, IPW, IAT, etc) and we would basically be doing the same thing.
Also, the best way to determine if you're running rich / lean is with the O2 readings. The higher the O2 levels means that there're higher levels of air / fuel post combustion as low O2 levels means there's low levels of air / fuel post combustion.
Save this file, and read it about 10 times and try to understand everything. It will give you a real good idea as to what's going on. http://www.absoluteselk.com/grandprix/Tuner_Rev_1.0.9h.doc
-Jeff |
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| redross17 Total posts: 3600
Brian Ross2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Location: Buffalo Age: 48 |
| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| JSelk wrote: | | STFTs need to be very, very close to zero. This can be done through tuning and usually, it's not too extensive (compared to other tasks, of course). |
Actually, your STFTs will always approach 0. The proximity to 0 indicates how much your LTFTs have settled. Once your STFTs are generally close to 0, you can start making MAF adjustments based on your LTFTs.
| JSelk wrote: |
We can try to get rid of your KR through tuning, but I don't think that it's worth the time put in to resolve it. Frankly, KR scales back engine timing for the current situation (engine load, MAP, IPW, IAT, etc) and we would basically be doing the same thing.
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Tune the fueling first.
| JSelk wrote: |
Also, the best way to determine if you're running rich / lean is with a wideband O2 sensor. Secondly would be the O2 readings.
The higher O2 millivolt readings means that there are higher levels of fuel vs air post combustion (rich), and lower O2 numbers means there are high levels of air vs fuel post combustion (lean).
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Fixed/clarified.
A good target range for O2s is 920-940mv at WOT.
The problem with those numbers is that the stock O2 sensor is only accurate around an air:fuel of 14.7. At WOT, you're somewhere around 12.0, stock. So 920-940 is really a crapshoot...but it's usually reasonable.
This accuracy is also why the computer does not try to calculate fuel trims at WOT...the O2 readings cannot be accurately converted to an AFR number. |
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| BigEd88 Total posts: 704
Ed Green2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 19 Apr 2007 Location: Amherst (Buffalo), NY Age: 36 |
| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'll figure it out....eventually. For now I'll just take it easy on the throttle and maybe borrow that scanner one more time to see if colder plugs helped at all. Maybe even add a little fuel to the table the controls fuel at WOT once I understand it better
Posted on the national site, awaiting some more replies from them to see what they think just for the heck of it:
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=3964497&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
Any sign of trouble with the idle appearing to hunt and my 02's jumping from way up in the hundreds to numbers in the 40-80 range then back up?
Is it just the intake/exhaust/thermostate throwing all the fuel off or do these vehicles have this much trim problem when stock? I know they come from the factory with knock, guess the question is what dangerous or not....hmmm |
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