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Greystar Total posts: 1313
Pat2002 Other Car Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Location: NC Age: 93 |
 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ok the first thing you need to do is get your fuel in line. Once you get your MAF tables (for part throttle driving) set. The table you want is on your Airflow -> General -> MAF Airflow vs. Frequency is where you edit. For LS1's people seem to like having their LTFT's around -4, I personally like them close to 0, but erring on the negative side slightly. This spreadsheet is for LS1's, but it may give you some insight for your situation DO NOT USE THIS FOR YOUR CAR! I don't know if the math used in it to calculate your MAF tables is valid for the L67!. http://allmod.net/hpt/automafV25.xls
Then move onto WOT and edit the table that affects your WOT fueling. You adjust this in: Fuel Control -> Power Enrich -> V8 Mult vs. RPM. When adjusting this use VERY SMALL increments. I'm talking lower it by single thousandths to lean it out or raising it to richen the mixture.
After you've gotten the above all set AND ONLY AFTER! You then want to start playing with your timing: Spark Advance -> High Octane. I would make very small adjustments to this. Do a lot of logging and check for KR. ANY KR at all in you'll want to lower the timing for that RPM range. And when I say any I mean ANY even if it's .1 KR. I've messed with mine at the track and have had something like .3 KR up top in 3rd gear only and reduced my timing by .5 in that range and have run better times because of this adjustment. No KR is acceptable period.
Please be very careful and double check every change you make.
You should also reflash back to your stock PCM bin and start over with that.
Most importantly this is only a very rough guide on what you want to do. Please don't do anything without first doing a lot of reading on the HP tuners forum. I read stuff for about 2 months before I did any tuning.
And finally:
I AM IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY DAMAGE YOU DO! If you fuck something up it's on your shoulders!
But I will take full credit for anything good that comes out of this  |
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| Greystar Total posts: 1313
Pat2002 Other Car Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Location: NC Age: 93 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Great info Oz! I went through and made a few changes. Check it out:
1. DISABLE ALL TORQUE MANAGEMENT This will eliminate all torque management within the PCM. Ignore this step if a standard transmission (M6) and continue to step 2.
A. Open the VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>Torque Management
B. Set Abuse Mode Enable = False
C. Set Abuse Mode RPM, Abuse Mode TPS and Abuse Mode Speed = 0
D. Select>Abuse Mode Torque Reduction vs. RPM. Set all values = 0
2. LTFT TUNING
A. In the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine Diagnostics>General>MAF Sensor Fail Frequency = 0. This will set a P0103 code and turn on the SES light. Dont worry about the light at this time.
B. In the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Spark Advance>Main Spark vs. Airflow vs. RPM Open Throttle/Moving. Copy the High Octane table to the Low Octane table. The computer reverts to the low octane table when MAF is unplugged, this will assure optimal timing.
C. Start the VCM scanner>Histogram display. File>Connect then Tools>VCM Controls>Fuel & Spark>Fuel Trim Learn>Reset Fuel Trims.
D. Changes to the LTFTs do not take effect immediately the PCM requires at least 50 minutes or roughly 100 miles to allow for the PCM to relearn it's fuel curve. Try not to enter PE mode while driving and logging for this procedure. Stop logging and save the log. Do NOT turn off the engine until the log is saved or it will be lost. Go to VCM Scanner>Histogram display>LTFT's. Open the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Airflow>Main VE and select Primary VE vs. RPM vs. MAP.
E. The goal is to get ALL LTFTs between 0 and -4. Positive LTFT's indicate fuel is being added because of a lean condition. Richen this cell by increasing the VE table value by the amount of the LTFT value. The operation is opposite for negative LTFT's.
If LTFT = (4), VE cell value is 67, result would be (67)+(4)=71 - increasing the VE, which is adding fuel. If the LTFT was (-4), the result would be (67)+(-4)=63, decreasing VE and thus reducing fuel. To decrease LTFT values, a smaller number or number closer to zero, ADD the difference between the positive LTFT value and zero to the corresponding cell in the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Airflow>Main VE>Primary VE vs. RPM vs. MAP table. To increase a LTFT value, a larger number or number farther away from zero, SUBTRACT the difference between the LTFT value and zero and SUBTRACT from the corresponding cell in the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Airflow>Main VE>Primary VE vs. RPM vs. MAP table. For example, In the VCM Scanner>Histogram display, the (.8, 40) cell, 800 RPM's and 40 kPa, is 4. To bring the VCM Scanner>Histogram display>LTFT cell (.8, 4.0) DOWN to 0 from 4 ADD 4 to the (.8, 4.0) cell in the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Airflow>Main VE>Primary VE vs. RPM vs. MAP table. If the VCM Scanner>Histogram display>LTFT cell (2.0, 30) is -10, SUBTRACT 10 from the (2000, 30) cell in the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Airflow>Main VE>Primary VE vs. RPM vs. MAP table to bring it UP to 0. This will not work out exactly but will be VERY CLOSE.
F. Repeat steps D-F until ALL values in the VCM Scanner>Histogram display>LTFT are between 0 and -4. Try to complete this on the same day for best results as LTFT values can vary +-4% per day.
G. Once all values are between 0 and -4, look at the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Airflow>Main VE>Primary VE vs. RPM vs. MAP>3D Surface graph. If the 3D Surface graph looks choppy, click on polynomial smoothing ONCE. This will smooth out the table values and provide a more crisp throttle response. Now rescan, and do step E.
3. WOT PE TUNING Do this only AFTER all LTFT's are BELOW 0. This method uses the stock narrow band oxygen sensors which are not that accurate for this area of tuning.
A. Open the VCM scanner, do not worry about resetting the fuel trims they should be learned at this point. If not, it takes roughly 100+ miles or 50+ minutes of driving to set the LTFT's.
B. Open the VCM Scanner>Histogram display and do a nice 0-70 or preferable 0-100mph run. Look at knock retard FIRST. If knock retard is present, skip to next section then come back here. If no knock retard is present, continue to the next step.
C. Again, if NO knock retard is present look in the VCM Scanner>Histogram display>Air/Fuel tab at the 100(kPa) row. It is best to log AFR with a wide band sensor to correlate the stock narrow band oxygen sensors mvs to actual AFR. Most cars seem to like narrow band oxygen sensor reading between 890mv - 900mv.
D. For example, at 100(kPa), 3200(RPM) the narrow band oxygen sensors are at 950mv. We want to bring that down to 890mv. I do not yet know exact equation, but go to the VCM Editor Engine>Fuel>Power Enrich, PE Enrichment>V8 Mult vs. RPM. Make sure Plus and Selected are bubbled in. In this case the narrow band oxygen sensor is reading rich, so bring it down by SUBTRACTING .01. NOTICE THE DECIMAL!!!! VERY IMPORTANT!!! If lean, BELOW 890mv then ADD .01 at a time. This is a small increment but we do not want to hurt the motor.
E. After making the changes, go back to step B and repeat until the oxygen sensors are in the appropriate range.
4. ELIMINATING KNOCK RETARD -
A. In the VCM Scanner>Histogram display>Retard, look for ANY knock retard. For example, cell (4.0, .20) shows 4 degrees of knock retard. This should be 0, so SUBTRACT 4 from the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Spark Advance>Main Spark vs. Airflow vs. RPM Open Throttle/Moving>High Octane (4000, .20) cell. Values cannot be less than zero in this table.
B. In the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Spark Advance>Main Spark vs. Airflow vs. RPM Open Throttle/Moving>High Octane, go to the (4000, .20) cell AND/OR whatever other cells that have knock retard and SUBTRACT the amount of knock retard that is present in the Histogram display from the value that is in the corresponding cell in the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Spark Advance>Main Spark vs. Airflow vs. RPM Open Throttle/Moving>High Octane table. Subtract by simply clicking on the Plus selection and in the box type -4 or whatever number you have to subtract by and click commit.
C. Run a new scan and verify NO knock retard is present. If still present, repeat from step A.
5. A4 TRANSMISSION SETTINGS -
A. Ensure all Torque Management is disabled. If not, see Section 1.
B. Open the VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>A4 Shift Speed. Set WOT Shift Enable %TPS = 90.
C. Set WOT Shift Disable %TPS = WOT Shift Enable %TPS-10 or 80 if you used the parameter in step B.
D. Look at VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>WOT Shift RPM vs. Shift. Set these table parameters to the desired WOT shift RPM for each gear. Keep in mind there is a slight delay at the shift point that will cause the engine to exceed these RPM settings. Ensure the VCM Editor>Edit>Engine>Fuel Control>Fuel Cutoff, DFCO>RPM Limits>P/N Cutoff RPM is roughly 500 RPM higher than these settings. We dont want to hit the rev limiter during the WOT shift. Set Normal, Performance, and Hot tables to the same parameters.
E. VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>WOT Shift Speed vs. Shift--PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH A GOOD LINK FOR THIS. I KNOW THERE ARE TABLES/CALCULATORS PER GEAR OUT THERE.
F. VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>Shift Speed vs. %TPS vs. Shift = Leave stock parameters.
G. Go to VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>A4 Shift Properties>Desired Shift Time vs. Torque>Normal. I basically guessed here, and could use some input. For the first half of
the torque band, I set shift time to .500 so you get nice soft, smooth shifts. Starting about midway, I decreased to .250 and for last 1/4 I changed to .100. I heard you do not want to go below .100 or else you will run into some kind of gear crossing? Please feel free to fill in here.
H. Go to VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>Base Shift Pressure vs. Torque vs. Gear. Okay this is kind of weird and I don't understand it, but what I PERSONALLY did was again take half of the chart and to the left. Take this and set to a LOW # like 10. I have a shift kit in my car, and setting first half gives me nice smooth shifts. You would never know I had a shift kit or torque converter in my car. I then took the middle and started beefing up shifts in increments of 10 then increments of 15. By far right of table I have shift pressure up to 96. Now, when you drive my car at 0-1/4 throttle it is SMOOTH. 1/2 throttle, you can feel a nice crisp shift. WOT it chirps tires from 1-2 and 2-3 shifts nice and hard.
I. Upshift/Downshift pressure modifiers - I don't understand. If you do, teach me and I'll update.
J. If you have a shift kit, leave max line pressure at 90. If not you can probably set to 100.
Edit: Updated VE tuning operation |
Blatently stolen from: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?board=vcmsuite_getstarted;action=display;num=1101426165;start=19#19
It's written for LS1 tuning, but the general idea is most of this is still valid for the L67 and L36. |
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| 2fast4U Total posts: 1113
Gary2001 Regal GS Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Location: Niagara Falls, NY Age: 53 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hera are set of scans, and the hpl of the last runs:
http://www.wnyym.com/car/06242005_004.hpl
http://www.wnyym.com/car/06242005_004.xls
With the heat, I will accept what I have unless you see something else that I either just don't know (I am new to this) or that I missed?
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RegalGS Admin / HP Tuners Moderator / FTV6 Moderator
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| Greystar Total posts: 1313
Pat2002 Other Car Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Location: NC Age: 93 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 2fast4U wrote: | Eggads! I found the problem!! It was in the map table from the stock bin I "modified" (or forgot to modify) I got the car running really well now with LTFT @ 0 , 16 - 17* of timing, low KR (it was 90* here today) and everything looking good in the O2's and the AFR...
Pays to RTFM sometimes I guess, and ask a million annoying as hell questions. |
I'd rather you asked questions than did any damage to your motor. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I've done quite a bit of work with my LS1's PCM (some good, some bad, none seeming to have done any damage so far!).
Wow 17* of timing? Damn I run about 27-28*  Well ~25* up top, but 28 through most of 3500rpm +, but then I'm NA.
Any KR is bad KR. I've raced my car in 80F temps in terrible humidity (Hello, Louisiana!) and had 0 KR and still run 12.7, so please tune for the conditions you'll be driving the car in. It is possible to tune the car to have no KR in the most extreme weather you'll have up there (mid 90's) and still have it run good times in reasonable weather. You can always have a summer tune and a fall/spring tune too. Ahh the joys of having your own tuner. |
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| Greystar Total posts: 1313
Pat2002 Other Car Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Location: NC Age: 93 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| 2fast4U wrote: |
With the heat, I will accept what I have unless you see something else that I either just don't know (I am new to this) or that I missed? |
Kill that KR! Pull 2* of timing from 3000rpm - redline and go log and see what you get. As I said before no KR is acceptable. Every tiny bit of KR is robbing you of potential power.
You're also running REALLY rich. You're O2's are WAY high; they seem to average around .950 . You really want to stop wasting so much fuel and running that rich is keeping you from making the most power. Get them down to about .915-.920 and you should be fine. Still a tiny bit rich, but not very much. My GTP used to run .890 O2's with a stock PCM, 3.4", CAI and 180* tstat and my best was 13.5 @ 100, with plenty of other mid-high 13's in all sorts of weather and I never had any problems, but honestly thats too lean for a FI car. |
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| 2fast4U Total posts: 1113
Gary2001 Regal GS Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Location: Niagara Falls, NY Age: 53 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Greystar wrote: | | 2fast4U wrote: |
With the heat, I will accept what I have unless you see something else that I either just don't know (I am new to this) or that I missed? |
Kill that KR! Pull 2* of timing from 3000rpm - redline and go log and see what you get. As I said before no KR is acceptable. Every tiny bit of KR is robbing you of potential power.
You're also running REALLY rich. You're O2's are WAY high; they seem to average around .950 . You really want to stop wasting so much fuel and running that rich is keeping you from making the most power. Get them down to about .915-.920 and you should be fine. Still a tiny bit rich, but not very much. My GTP used to run .890 O2's with a stock PCM, 3.4", CAI and 180* tstat and my best was 13.5 @ 100, with plenty of other mid-high 13's in all sorts of weather and I never had any problems, but honestly thats too lean for a FI car. |
If I pull any more fuel I will be right back to 8-10* of KR. That is what I have tried to sort of extinguish with the fuel added.
If I pull any more timing, I am back to 10* of timing at WOT... What to do? |
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| redross17 Total posts: 3600
Brian Ross2004 Grand Prix GTP CompG Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Location: Buffalo Age: 48 |
| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Great info Oz! I went through and made a few changes. Check it out:
1. DISABLE ALL TORQUE MANAGEMENT This will eliminate all torque management within the PCM. Ignore this step if a standard transmission (M6) and continue to step 2.
A. Open the VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>Torque Management
B. Set Abuse Mode Enable = False
C. Set Abuse Mode RPM, Abuse Mode TPS and Abuse Mode Speed = 0
D. Select>Abuse Mode Torque Reduction vs. RPM. Set all values = 0
It's written for LS1 tuning, but the general idea is most of this is still valid for the L67 and L36. |
They don't really recommend this for daily-drivers though, do they?
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2018 Acadia
Retired: 2014 ATS, 2004 GTP |
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| bpipe95 Total posts: 982
Brad2007 Other Car Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Location: roc |
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Greystar wrote: | | 2fast4U wrote: |
With the heat, I will accept what I have unless you see something else that I either just don't know (I am new to this) or that I missed? |
Kill that KR! Pull 2* of timing from 3000rpm - redline and go log and see what you get. As I said before no KR is acceptable. Every tiny bit of KR is robbing you of potential power.
You're also running REALLY rich. You're O2's are WAY high; they seem to average around .950 . You really want to stop wasting so much fuel and running that rich is keeping you from making the most power. Get them down to about .915-.920 and you should be fine. Still a tiny bit rich, but not very much. My GTP used to run .890 O2's with a stock PCM, 3.4", CAI and 180* tstat and my best was 13.5 @ 100, with plenty of other mid-high 13's in all sorts of weather and I never had any problems, but honestly thats too lean for a FI car. |
pshh only 27* of timing... pussy i run 34-39 with no real knock, now false knock that is a huge pain.
and so i keep this on topic (dont want to get edited) good luck gary dont for get HP tuner forums are your friend.
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| studderin Total posts: 6272
John Csotello1998 Grand Prix GTP Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Location: 2nd gear burnouts Age: 42 |
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| bpipe95 wrote: |
pshh only 27* of timing... pussy i run 34-39 with no real knock, now false knock that is a huge pain.
. |
Thats becuse your engins is a dinosaur, with very poor designed combustion chambers with a burn rate, the speed of shipping TOG's. And cam phasing the model A is impressed with.
read the sig bitch....
OMGit's truuu the truth hurts..... (?)
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New Era performance
01z28, M6 NA, mullet, T tops, siqqqq |
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| Greystar Total posts: 1313
Pat2002 Other Car Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Location: NC Age: 93 |
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| 2fast4U wrote: |
If I pull any more fuel I will be right back to 8-10* of KR. That is what I have tried to sort of extinguish with the fuel added.
If I pull any more timing, I am back to 10* of timing at WOT... What to do? |
If you're seeing that much KR then there are some problems. Pull the timing anf fuel and slowly work your way up from there. You do not want any KR. I can't stress this enough.
You're not seeing aany false knock by chance are you? Is your downpipe banging or something? |
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| Greystar Total posts: 1313
Pat2002 Other Car Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Location: NC Age: 93 |
| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| redross17 wrote: | | Quote: | Great info Oz! I went through and made a few changes. Check it out:
1. DISABLE ALL TORQUE MANAGEMENT This will eliminate all torque management within the PCM. Ignore this step if a standard transmission (M6) and continue to step 2.
A. Open the VCM Editor>Edit>Transmission>Torque Management
B. Set Abuse Mode Enable = False
C. Set Abuse Mode RPM, Abuse Mode TPS and Abuse Mode Speed = 0
D. Select>Abuse Mode Torque Reduction vs. RPM. Set all values = 0
It's written for LS1 tuning, but the general idea is most of this is still valid for the L67 and L36. |
They don't really recommend this for daily-drivers though, do they? |
Most people do remove torque management. And in fact removing all these things isn't a huge deal unless you're a complete moron. |
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| 2fast4U Total posts: 1113
Gary2001 Regal GS Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Location: Niagara Falls, NY Age: 53 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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OK....did some major work today and have a new scan to show.
Take a look and see if anything jumps out. The weather today was horrid, but the scans look pretty decent. I am going to visit Delta Sonic tomorrow before I hit the races and get a few gallons of CAM2. Also the temps are supposed to be 15+* lower than today.
All of the data collected was done after I unplugged the maf and tuned the ltft's to an acceptable level. Also, no alky / water was used in this scan.
Http://www.wnyym.com/car/06302005_002.xls |
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| Greystar Total posts: 1313
Pat2002 Other Car Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Location: NC Age: 93 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| 2fast4U wrote: | OK....did some major work today and have a new scan to show.
Take a look and see if anything jumps out. The weather today was horrid, but the scans look pretty decent. I am going to visit Delta Sonic tomorrow before I hit the races and get a few gallons of CAM2. Also the temps are supposed to be 15+* lower than today.
All of the data collected was done after I unplugged the maf and tuned the ltft's to an acceptable level. Also, no alky / water was used in this scan.
Http://www.wnyym.com/car/06302005_002.xls |
KR is MUCH better now, but you still need to address what little there is. You can go in and adjust the areas in RPM band that you're seeing it in. Go in and lower each section by the average amount of KR you're seeing there. And in the area's you're seeing 0 KR try increasing the timing slightly until you get a tiny bit of KR, then back it down until you don't.
You're still running a little rich by the O2's. What size pulley are you running? How much boost on average at WOT? |
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| 2fast4U Total posts: 1113
Gary2001 Regal GS Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Location: Niagara Falls, NY Age: 53 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Greystar wrote: | | 2fast4U wrote: | OK....did some major work today and have a new scan to show.
Take a look and see if anything jumps out. The weather today was horrid, but the scans look pretty decent. I am going to visit Delta Sonic tomorrow before I hit the races and get a few gallons of CAM2. Also the temps are supposed to be 15+* lower than today.
All of the data collected was done after I unplugged the maf and tuned the ltft's to an acceptable level. Also, no alky / water was used in this scan.
Http://www.wnyym.com/car/06302005_002.xls |
KR is MUCH better now, but you still need to address what little there is. You can go in and adjust the areas in RPM band that you're seeing it in. Go in and lower each section by the average amount of KR you're seeing there. And in the area's you're seeing 0 KR try increasing the timing slightly until you get a tiny bit of KR, then back it down until you don't.
You're still running a little rich by the O2's. What size pulley are you running? How much boost on average at WOT? |
I am running a 3.3 today, 3.2 tomorrow. I did go in and "adjust" the KR out completely. I am hoping that with a drop 15=* and with CAM2 fuel, I will be able to try a couple of different bin files tomorrow and get even better results. THANKS for looking , I appreciate it. |
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| bluto2000gs Total posts: 3300
Carl1996 Other Car Joined: 31 Mar 2004 Location: Lima, NY Age: 53 |
| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Gary I am thinking that the smaller pulley may help lean you a little bit.
Why run water and no alky?
I see your cooant temp is right up with mine. Man it's hot out.
What happens when you run nothing?
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BHO sucks. |
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